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Author Topic: Good first tube amp  (Read 2577 times)
doc
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« on: June 08, 2005, 03:41:01 pm »

I really love the tube sound and want to start learning up on tube stuff. What would you guys recommend as an affordable/upgradable good quality tube amp to search for on eBay (or elsewhere)?
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« on: June 08, 2005, 03:41:01 pm »

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MikeS
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« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2005, 07:50:06 pm »

Quote from: doc
I really love the tube sound and want to start learning up on tube stuff. What would you guys recommend as an affordable/upgradable good quality tube amp to search for on eBay (or elsewhere)?



Depends on what you want to spend, what topology desired, power, and what sort of speakers you are using.

You can go for either a rebuilt vintage offering on eBay, or a used newer commercial amp, or the newer chinese amps that get pumped on there.
Don't forget about Audiogon, though more catered to boutique gear.

If you want to go for a vintage tube amp to rebuild and learn about vacuum tube circuits, put the most concern into the output transformers.
A good tube circuit is only as linear as the output transformer, unless it's a OTL or something....
The OPT's make or break a circuit.....IMO.

The Dynaco ST-70 is a 35 wpc push-pull using EL-34 output tubes, they made like 300,000 of the things over a 30 year period or something like that.
The main reason the Dynaco ST-70 is such a classic amp is the OPT's, they measure excellent.
They always pop up on eBay in various conditions and prices. If one were to go with a Dyanco, go for a stock ST-70 to rebuild yourself.
Then you don't have to deal with someone's cobbled up rebuild, or goofy modifications or other crap, and the price will be lower possibly.

The internet is saturated with info, mods, schematic, even the assembly manual is online.

Dynaco made quite a bit of stuff, the Mark III 6550 push-pull mono amps being the higher output offering.

95honda has a nice clean stock example of a Dynakit ST-70, with the brown cage the earlier versions had.
More than likely the OPT's have cloth leads, indicative of being made in the USA, and more desired. The plastic leaded OPT's of the newer versions are supposed to made in Japan, but are a fine output tranformer nonetheless.(I think...) :shock:

Other options are the HH Scott integrated amps. Though as a integrated amp, it is a more complicated circuit.

Eico has some rather simple vintage integrated and power amps, but they are starting to get way overpriced for what they are. Most use good output transformers.

A vintage Magnavox tube amp from a console can be made to look good with some work. Not much powerwise but they sure sound damn good.
I have a singled-ended 6BQ5 version, and a 6BQ5 PP maggotbox, they made 6V6 versions with the older console amps.

There is quite a bit of vintage tube amplifiers brands out there, ranging from absolute shit to shit we'll never see or afford.

You may find something local living on the west side,(yard sales, classified ads..).
There is more interest in vacuum tubes over there than over here.

You could buy a tube amp in kit form, but it all depends on how much cash one wants to throw out for decent quality.

You can scrounge up some test gear, a good 500 volt/200 milliamp tube DC power supply, build a breadboard jig and get deep.......

I'm trying to follow through on mono EL-34 PP amps, using the PS transformers, output xformers and the chassis of a pair of Lowery 6550 PP mono organ amps.
I'm slow.......

Mike
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doc
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2005, 08:14:35 pm »

Thanks for the info Mike.

I'm not much of an electronics guy.. kinda more interested in maybe a good base unit to perhaps just replace tubes to clean up or something of that sort. Speaker wise, it would be likely smaller cabinets, some very efficient good sounding rigs, quite possibly in my office.

I'll keep an eye on ebay for those models, thanks!
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2005, 08:14:35 pm »

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MikeS
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2005, 10:00:29 pm »

Quote from: doc
Thanks for the info Mike.

I'm not much of an electronics guy.. kinda more interested in maybe a good base unit to perhaps just replace tubes to clean up or something of that sort. Speaker wise, it would be likely smaller cabinets, some very efficient good sounding rigs, quite possibly in my office.

I'll keep an eye on ebay for those models, thanks!



One thing with vintage tube amplifers is most use multisectional electrolytic capacitors, some axial paper 'lytics, and carbon comp resistors.
They also use various forms of bi-polar coupling caps, which can leak DC over time, you don't want that on the grid of a tube meant for AC signal levels.

Depending on the vintage of the unit, the parts can be 40 years old or better. The electrolytics can (some can't) be re-formed and live longer with no real issues, but fresh capacitors are the best option for the long term.
Carbon composition resistors can drift over time, and moisture doesn't do them much good.
This is mostly with 1/2 watters, the one and two watters seem to hold their value better. But they sound warm and yummy......so they claim.

I guess I'm saying the chances of the tubes still being strong and useable are greater than the caps and resistors being within tolerance.....
Simple checks with the PS xformers, chokes, and output iron for shorts and known resistance/impedance are things to keep in mind.

It's just a matter of checking tolerances, replacing what's bad, and checking voltage and bias once everything is up and going. A guy can do it with just DMM, I guess.
Can't re-form a capacitor, just replace it.

Mike
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doc
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2005, 10:16:48 pm »

Ah, ok... that doesn't sound too difficult. There are a couple ST-70s on eBay in various conditions so I'll cruise through them.
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MikeS
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2005, 06:37:23 pm »

That one for 51 bucks is pretty much a basket, the output transformers appear to be a bit rusty, but they should be ok....you don't know until you have them on the bench....

The underside pic of the amp has no power supply xformer, but other pics show it? Makes one wonder if the PS transformer may be toast, or you just don't get one.

Uh...one thing about the ST-70, the PS xformer's were underated, they won't outlive the OPT's.

The output transformers I think fetch around fifty bucks or so.....it's a take a chance auction.

The auction with Curcio upgrade driver boards at a 450 BIN has rather nasty layout IMO. It may be quiet, but it doesn't look too special.
Overpriced to me, and you deal with someone else's mess.

The near mint ST-70 at 203.50 looks like a nice clean plug and play amp there, and he doesn't mention modifications...though one should ask the seller.
It might hit 400,450 bucks. Who knows, eBay always amazes me.

Now you got myself lurking fleabay for vintage tube amplifiers.....not a good thing.....
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JimJ
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2005, 09:16:35 am »

If you're not afraid to do some work on the speakers, a used Decware SE84B or C Zen triode amp would be my choice for a first tube amp Smiley

I say "do work on the speakers" because the Zen only has an output power of around 2 watts RMS at a pretty low impedance - it has a perverse liking for 2 and 4 ohm loads. So you need speakers that are 4 ohms or lower, at least 94dB/W efficient with simple (or no) crossovers. Regular bookshelf speakers won't cut it.

This is just my opinion, though...I used to have a Zen Select (basically a hot-rodded SE84C) and absolutely loved it.
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2005, 09:16:35 am »

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MikeS
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2005, 08:38:02 pm »

You made it. Welcome!
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JimJ
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2005, 08:43:08 pm »

I think I'll lurk around here for a while...maybe even spew some semi-coherent ramblings and musings from time to time  :roll:
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95Honda
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2005, 05:47:09 am »

Quote from: MikeS
You made it. Welcome!


Always good to see new people..  Welcome!
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MikeS
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2005, 04:52:13 pm »

"This is just my opinion, though...I used to have a Zen Select (basically a hot-rodded SE84C) and absolutely loved it."

If you lurk ebay long enough, you might come across a single-ended 6BQ5 Magnavox console amp for a good price.
(Though the hype is out for those amps, and the prices reflect it.)

With a more modern layout ditching some of the un-needed parts, the little pentode connected amp with a little feedback would probably run right alongside the Zen select. Who knows unless they were compared together however.

The Magnavox 6BQ5 push-pull console amplifier is another good one to find. 15 watts total instead of 5 and the PP amp sounds damn near as good as the SE amp with a little more grunt.

The SE amp was a Value Village four dollar item with the console, but I completely went through the amp. I'm figuring 60 bucks when everything was said and done.
This little amp lashes right up with my Klipsch Cornwalls for some reason, the 4 ohm thing I suppose.
The PP amp was a 60 dollar eBay item. It took some messing around to keep the driver stage from overdriving the outputs, but it's pretty much stock.

I had planned on doing a EL-34 PP amp with a pair of Lowery 6550 PP mono organ amps, but it required a complete new layout and driver stages because the design is flawed, cheesy and outdated.
The ol' EE audio friend coined it. "Some young buck probably threw this design together and didn't really know what the hell he was doing."

One Lowery amp is still intact, and I have all the tubes except a 5AR4 rectifier. I should variac the amp up and give it a listen some time.

My latest pipe dream is to try the SE Magnavox circuit using 47 Pentodes.
And drive it with a single stage using possibly a 27, or a mini bottle of some sort.
Pentode connection with some feedback.

I just need to figure out the resistance coupling amplifier charts, and tally up gain and whatnot. Something I kinda suck at.......
I have some nice little SE Ampex output transformers with a primary impedance of 7K. Just what the 47 pentode calls for.

If and when this will ever happen, who knows......I'll enjoy the 2A3 triode amp with no feedback until then.

Mike.
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JimJ
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2005, 06:28:02 am »

Nice isolation feet Smiley What are those?
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MikeS
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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2005, 08:09:42 pm »

Wooden wheels. To get air under the amp......
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Forceaudio
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2005, 08:09:42 pm »

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MikeS
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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2005, 08:09:58 pm »

Double post......I keep getting blasted off the site...argh...
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JimJ
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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2005, 06:19:44 am »

Oh, those little wooden craft wheel thingies. I see it now Smiley

Interesting use...
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